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Author Topic: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?  (Read 1028 times)

Hanzo23

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 11:16:06 am »
he was making the point that, we have descended from one possible possible man and one mitochondrial eve, but he also gave the scenario where that may not have been true. Whats confusing is also, he later on specified that we have similarities with other species and of our kind.

Essentially, is he making the point that both the bible story and evolution have equal credibility?
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pach

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2011, 07:43:01 pm »
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Essentially, is he making the point that both the bible story and evolution have equal credibility?

Which should not cause scandal to non-believers. Evolution and the bible story do not contradict each other, because they were not in opposition in the first place...they never were.

Hanzo23

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2011, 09:14:49 pm »
Which should not cause scandal to non-believers. Evolution and the bible story do not contradict each other, because they were not in opposition in the first place...they never were.

so then you we shouldnt be in disagreement that we share about 90% common similarities with monkeys? and we branched off somewhere hundreds of thousands of years ago? He said it himself, since there is no real way to figure out the origin of our species at the moment, but they would like to share a common possible beginning, a simple organism evolving into more complex organisms, both sides still debate as to the possible origin of the simple organism (one side suggests God, the other big bang, others with the multiverse theories) All of which just have as much credibility since A) there is no way to measure which it really the beginning of those events (you cant ask where did God come from? Where is the origin of Planck's Wall? Where is the origin of the first universe in the cascade of multiverses?) B) they only do estimates or theories of how it may have happened.

I havent seen him answer the genetic differences and advantages of the other animals compared to us (hopefully its in the latter half of his discussion)

I like his approach though when he's discussing, very concise, Im just not convinced yet since he is missing some key points when discussing DNA and genes
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pach

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2011, 09:47:19 pm »
That probably has to be admitted. Which, then I again I find no problems since the Faith (Catholic) really is not against evolution.

Theodosius Dobzhansky, while not a Roman Catholic is nonetheless a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, was an evolutionary biologist whose name rings a bell in these discussions, says that and I quote:

Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts. ...the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness.

– Theodosius Dobzhansky, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" (1973)

---

As you may well remember, I took a political philosophy course last semester to study and give an account on the Catholic position on politics.
 
Now I am taking up a course of the Philosophy of Biology in order to be enlightened and be open-minded regarding the matter - which, unfortunately is riddled with myths, generalizations and caricatures coming from both sides of the political spectrum.

Hanzo23

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2011, 09:56:19 pm »
^^
thats good, since if the theory that a "creator" or a "prime mover" indeed create the simple microorganisms or the  "first cause" may have given way for these to exist, that changes your perspective in religion. Wont you agree that religion elevates men above all other animals? so if humans and animals all spawn from a single common ancestry, and adapted to the environment by where we evolved in, then the story of Adam and Eve is seriously twisted. If you look at that from a certain perspective. It may even guide to the answer that the biblical approach of creation is inaccurate or false.
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand nor look through the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books
You shall not look through my eyes either nor take things from me
You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself

pach

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2011, 11:55:39 am »
Quote
then the story of Adam and Eve is seriously twisted. If you look at that from a certain perspective. It may even guide to the answer that the biblical approach of creation is inaccurate or false.

twisted to a certain extent because some people have a wrong understanding of the creation story. but only if one carefully studies both scriptures and science, and one retains an open mind to either fields, the truth will eventually come out that neither of them contradict each other, but lead to the same truth but through different avenues.

Calicoast

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2011, 07:52:21 am »
Study Biology and you will discover than it's not the monkeys that are our ancestors, but rather some BACTERIA.

Kaya wag nyo nilalait mga bacteria, ninuno nyo yan.

When arguing about evolution vs creationism. I find it funny and ARROGANT that people stop at "human evolved from monkeys" statement but NEVER raised the question where did monkeys evolve from? I guess God made monkeys and people just evolved from them. Hahahaha

In the end, shall we "junk" creationism for "evolutionism"? Why can't we believe in both? One towards our SPIRITUAL being and one geared towards SCIENCE.

After all, in the 50s and 60's SCIENTISTS believed that LGM - "Little Green Men" existed.  ;D

REAL scientists say that all today in science are not a fact but THEORIES. Only arrogant people who love "quoting" say that science is about absolute facts (not so different from bible quoting obsessed people).

Pach is right in saying that if one remains open to both fields, there would be "no conflict" no "contradictions" because in the first place, science and religion are NOT the opposite polar of each other.

The problem is not whether which is right, evolution or creation, but rather some people find it cool to be a pretentious "hippie" or an ultra maniac who takes everything literally.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 08:07:24 am by Calicoast »

Calicoast

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2011, 07:55:42 am »
That probably has to be admitted. Which, then I again I find no problems since the Faith (Catholic) really is not against evolution.

Theodosius Dobzhansky, while not a Roman Catholic is nonetheless a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, was an evolutionary biologist whose name rings a bell in these discussions, says that and I quote:

Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts. ...the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness.

– Theodosius Dobzhansky, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" (1973)

---

As you may well remember, I took a political philosophy course last semester to study and give an account on the Catholic position on politics.
 
Now I am taking up a course of the Philosophy of Biology in order to be enlightened and be open-minded regarding the matter - which, unfortunately is riddled with myths, generalizations and caricatures coming from both sides of the political spectrum.

Even Einstein, one of the greatest scientists believed in God. I believe he was a Jew though, not a Christian

Calicoast

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2011, 08:00:14 am »
twisted to a certain extent because some people have a wrong understanding of the creation story. but only if one carefully studies both scriptures and science, and one retains an open mind to either fields, the truth will eventually come out that neither of them contradict each other, but lead to the same truth but through different avenues.

Interesting. Isn't it that according to the bible we all came from dust? In Astronomy, everything came from dust particles is space.  :P

Who says that the bible and science never had a common point?  8)

Hanzo23

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2011, 10:29:08 am »
Interesting. Isn't it that according to the bible we all came from dust? In Astronomy, everything came from dust particles is space.  :P

Who says that the bible and science never had a common point?  8)

Then where did that dust come from? God? Then if you follow the normal regress of creation, where did God come from? This is where science and religion tend to have the argument. The Bible has already been refuted for both the scientific evidence and is a really bad source of morality.

If we did all come from some space dust, then it only strengthens the evidence for the Big Bang theory and/or the multiverse theory.
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand nor look through the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books
You shall not look through my eyes either nor take things from me
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Calicoast

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2011, 04:26:10 am »
Then where did that dust come from? God? Then if you follow the normal regress of creation, where did God come from? This is where science and religion tend to have the argument. The Bible has already been refuted for both the scientific evidence and is a really bad source of morality.

If we did all come from some space dust, then it only strengthens the evidence for the Big Bang theory and/or the multiverse theory.

As Pach mentioned, if you remove politics out of the picture, Science and Religion do  not contradict each other because in the first place, they are not in the same spectrum. You cannot compare Apples with Oranges. Only when politics enter do people compare apples with oranges.

I wonder if we can replace God with Allah and Bibble with the Q'uran. Would there still be an "scientific argument" or people will just say that "they are two different things not to be compared".

The funny thing about people, those who are not really doing ACTUAL researches tend to be the one who compares religion and science; while the real scientists do not. Enter politics! :) Einstein and Galileo were deeply attached to their faith(minus church politics) yet they are among the world's greatest scientists

After all, scientific RACISM did exist where scientists used to believe that a certain race was more intelligent that another race and it took the charity of religion to help remove it(after all, where did the statement "we are all created equal come from? Definitely not from science!). Again, in the 1950's and 1960's some scientists believed that LGM - Little Green Men existed (which turned out to be pulsar stars and the one who came up with the idea of pulsar stars was RIDICULED by "fellow scientists" who believed in the LGMs).

One thing: I don't think you got my dust statement. Lighten up a bit and you will get it. Get rid of your religious bigotry and you will clearly see BOTH sides of the spectrum.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 04:34:35 am by Calicoast »

Hanzo23

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2011, 06:56:30 am »
As Pach mentioned, if you remove politics out of the picture, Science and Religion do  not contradict each other because in the first place, they are not in the same spectrum. You cannot compare Apples with Oranges. Only when politics enter do people compare apples with oranges.
However, they both provide theories not only on origin of existence, but they argue that biogenesis is more likely than abiogenesis. Your position right now if I am not mistaken is on abiogenesis, which is what some, if not most of the scientific community attributes where the evidence points.

Quote
I wonder if we can replace God with Allah and Bibble with the Q'uran. Would there still be an "scientific argument" or people will just say that "they are two different things not to be compared".
You can feel free to fill it in with any mythological god in the span of the history of religion ( Zeus, Mithra, Apollo, Quetzalcoatl, Odin, Yahweh, Jehovah etc etc) The point is that, a complex creation is created by something just as complicated if not more complicated than the creation.

So following this logic, if we assume that God is real, and God created humans that are complicated beings, the logical regression step means that God itself is just as or even more complicated than humans. Then you take another logical regressive step, whatever created God, has to be more complicated and sophisticated than God. Another step and another, you will end up with an infinite regress and answer nothing.

This is what really makes me laugh, people are intelligent beings, we base our lives on everyday decisions based on experience, knowledge, critical thinking and risk assessment, yet some people have this special area in their brain, let's say the "God box" where all of those attributes do not apply.

Quote
The funny thing about people, those who are not really doing ACTUAL researches tend to be the one who compares religion and science; while the real scientists do not. Enter politics! :) Einstein and Galileo were deeply attached to their faith(minus church politics) yet they are among the world's greatest scientists
Politics are irrelevant when you are trying to prove the facts. The simple fact is that there are two clashing theories to try and answer the history of existence and development of living creatures.  You can read and try to follow the scientific method and the logic to answer each claim.

There will come a time when, just like all other religion, the major ones right now will be thrown out to the garbage of human history, just take a look at Thor after explaining the reason on how we get lightning and thunder, people stopped believing in that myth. Some scientists like Isaac Newton who explained the theory of gravity couldnt explain where gravity came from. So being a religious person, he thought it came from God because he had no better explanation. Now we have the most recent theory for gravity coming from Albert Einstein.

What if in the future the Multiverse theory is validated? or the Big Bang Theory? String theory? Are you going to discard your faith once the facts come out? I highly doubt it (see my statement about the "God box" above)

Quote
After all, scientific RACISM did exist where scientists used to believe that a certain race was more intelligent that another race and it took the charity of religion to help remove it(after all, where did the statement "we are all created equal come from? Definitely not from science!). Again, in the 1950's and 1960's some scientists believed that LGM - Little Green Men existed (which turned out to be pulsar stars and the one who came up with the idea of pulsar stars was RIDICULED by "fellow scientists" who believed in the LGMs).
And where is this theory now after scientific method and formal peer reviews are applied? Can you cite your resources for the first few sentences about the superiority of another race and with the charity of religion it was abolished?

Quote
One thing: I don't think you got my dust statement. Lighten up a bit and you will get it. Get rid of your religious bigotry and you will clearly see BOTH sides of the spectrum.
I think it is on both sides, you missed the point on the idea of infinite regress. Try to answer that and instead of referring my statements as sign of religious bigotry. If you start to add God into the equation, you will now have to provide evidence of such an existence.
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand nor look through the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books
You shall not look through my eyes either nor take things from me
You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself

Calicoast

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2011, 08:06:08 am »
Where, in the first place, did I add God to equation?

I have mentioned that religion and science are two different things, apples and oranges, nor did I ever mention or imply that religion refutes science or science refutes religion.

It's all in your mind. It is you who is putting "color" that I am. What I am merely saying is that science and religion are two different things -- humanity can both accept religion and science. On as regards to their physical(atoms, molecules, DNA, etc) being, one their spiritual (non-physical, non-material) being.

Now, shall we change God to Allah and Bible to "Q'uran" and change "Catholic" to "Islam" and come up with Religion vs Science argument? Or shall you say they are two different things?

I rest my case and you can continue being angry.


Hanzo23

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Re: If humans camed from monkeys, whycome there still be monkeys?
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2011, 11:41:09 am »
Where, in the first place, did I add God to equation?
Simple to answer, religion includes the representation of a god or a supreme being in order for it to be considered to be one. when you include the term religion into any scientific argument, the source by which how religion explains it does not excuse its representation from analysis.

Quote
I have mentioned that religion and science are two different things, apples and oranges, nor did I ever mention or imply that religion refutes science or science refutes religion.

It's all in your mind. It is you who is putting "color" that I am. What I am merely saying is that science and religion are two different things -- humanity can both accept religion and science. On as regards to their physical(atoms, molecules, DNA, etc) being, one their spiritual (non-physical, non-material) being.

According to your statement, they are two different things yet they try to explain the same principle which is existence of the physical world. If religion is only trying to explain spiritual theories (which I have no problems, not my field of interest), then all is well, but if it tries to cross the natural world, and provide statements coming from the spiritual realm, then it needs to be analyzed by the scientific method to validate the evidence it provides.

Remember you agreed to Pach's statement that science and religion are not contradictory. Using this, Science doesnt need to include unnecessary complexities and provide evidence that the process can happen without some "spiritual" guidance.

Quote
Now, shall we change God to Allah and Bible to "Q'uran" and change "Catholic" to "Islam" and come up with Religion vs Science argument? Or shall you say they are two different things?
I rest my case and you can continue being angry.

What is your point in this statement? that I will not make the same comments if you changed the religion? It is still the same situation.

How is am I angry? I am trying to understand your statement that religion and science are two different aspects yet they try to explain the same theory and you also agreed that they are non-contradictory? You have quite some explaining to do for this
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand nor look through the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books
You shall not look through my eyes either nor take things from me
You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself

 

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