ABORTION (EVERYONE, this is a must-read)

[Hanzo23]

^^
The decision between two schools of thought will be as follows

Pro-life (Pach): Continue on with the pregnancy and the kid will be placed in foster care, regardless of status of the child and may only consider to terminate the pregnancy if and only if, the life of the mother is at guaranteed mortal danger.

Pro-choice (Hanzo23): The pregnancy can be terminated HOWEVER, there is a strict legal boundary of up to how late the stage can be done before it is deemed illegal to terminate it. By the United States Supreme Court ruling, the girl (expecting mother) has legal freedom over her body for the first trimester, or from zero to three months of pregnancy. Beyond this, she is bound by law to continue on with the pregnancy up to term unless there is a valid medical reason to terminate the pregnancy otherwise.

The issue here is where your loyalties will lie, between moral obligation to society, or your advocacy to personal freedom. Abortion is never an easy decision. I would agree that not all girls are deciding to do it. I wont push it as a good and easy way out of a dilemma but at least, by carefully balancing secular rights and moral rights, this is provided as a valid option.

[pach]

You, of the catholic church, keeps on stepping on people's toes and take away their freedom to decide about the outcome of their fate.  This statement is not only applicable to abortion as you know.

"

 the argument purely comes from the natural law, which is independent of Catholic doctrine.

This is part of the complexity of the issue that you cannot say that "oh, because we dont allow that."

same charge. equally complicated if one says "we allow that here".

clearly, the truth the does depend on human convention or popularity....

Because you fail to recognize and weigh the rights and freedoms of BOTH parties (are we going to start again from the beginning?)

If you have conflict of interest between two parties, which side are you really going to be on? Are you going to be bias about the issue? or will you be fair and weigh everything into context? You're a smart person Pach, as such i've assumed you studied part of secular law. You decide.

all i can say is, freedom of choice is a weapon of opression against women.

alot of women have been fooled by modernistic thinking such as feminism. it does not give them liberation. it gives them lies.

[Hanzo23]

the argument purely comes from the natural law, which is independent of Catholic doctrine.

And once can think that the catholic doctrine by itself provides equality?

clearly, the truth the does depend on human convention or popularity....

Yet the truth you claim may also show bias or unbalanced views.

all i can say is, freedom of choice is a weapon of opression against women.

alot of women have been fooled by modernistic thinking such as feminism. it does not give them liberation. it gives them lies.

Be careful of this statement Pach, you cant twist your words around and fool everyone around here.

Freedom of choice is a gift from our forefathers who tried to establish a society where there are no monarchs to tell the people what to do or what is right and wrong. Unlike in a given sect of religion, something may be allowed while in another sect, its taboo.

You think your statement about feminism giving them lies and not liberation. Do you think making those decisions for them is giving them liberty? Wrong Pach, your job as a clergyman is just to show ways, so do I, only I have one more way to solve it than what the churches provide. What the church negates is the personal freedom of the individual by his own given rights.

[pach]

freedom to kill, yes?

right to take away human life, yes? who gives that right?

read testimonies about persons who have undergone an abortion...it did not make them happy. it haunts them.

[Hanzo23]

^^Wrong, this is one of the many specialties of religion. Twisting the very same untruth by making things they way they want to do it appear that it is the only right thing to do.

Freedom to kill? How do you define life then? Can the church give its very own definition? is it the moment the heart starts beating? is it the moment brainwaves start to function? Dont twist this issue Pach.

Again, the right to take away human life, how can you even guarantee what is the supposed period called "start of life"? What is your definition?

Read testimonies about "persons"? (i think that is incorrect, correct term should be "people") who have undergone abortion? Why the hell then do I only find those alleged "testimonies" on pro-life articles? Ill give you a perfect example below

Everyone says Lasik can get you blind, we find tons and tons of articles about people having complications with Lasik, yet why is it still a popular medical surgery right now? You know why? because people who go through it successfully move on with their lives and forget about the ordeal. Same thing goes with abortion. You cant just place a general assumption that everyone is as depressed as the articles you read online and say "Oh, everyone is having this problem." That is the exact lie religion wants you to believe. Can you cite me reliable, unbiased, statistically verified study where you say that them (i would assume you mean ALL or 100% of females) had post traumatic experiences after having their pregnancy terminated. Anything short of that and you already are making false statements.

I feel even worse about those women who did feel depressed and used their ordeal as a dangling tool for other people who did or wondered about having their pregnancy terminated.

[pach]

You are twisting the truth, and you are corrupting the minds of the simple people by your supposedly "sophisticated" arguments in defense of a godless culture.


Life is sacred and this sacred life starts at conception.  Both Science and Christianity agree hat life begins at conception.

you do not want to recgonize that because if you do, your whole argument will fall apart. No, what has been, is. what is, will forever be. it will never change.

Life starts at conception. Only a clearly-biased person will not recognize that.

Can you cite me reliable, unbiased, statistically verified study where you say that them (i would assume you mean ALL or 100% of females) had post traumatic experiences after having their pregnancy terminated. Anything short of that and you already are making false statements.

there is no need. reality stares right at you in the face. you are trying to escape from it in order to defend your futile and distorted principles in life.

Abortion is murder.... that's what reason says, not just religion.

[Hanzo23]

You are twisting the truth, and you are corrupting the minds of the simple people by your supposedly "sophisticated" arguments in defense of a godless culture.


Life is sacred and this sacred life starts at conception.  Both Science and Christianity agree hat life begins at conception.

you do not want to recgonize that because if you do, your whole argument will fall apart. No, what has been, is. what is, will forever be. it will never change.

Life starts at conception. Only a clearly-biased person will not recognize that.

there is no need. reality stares right at you in the face. you are trying to escape from it in order to defend your futile and distorted principles in life.

Abortion is murder.... that's what reason says, not just religion.

Cite your sources Pach, and dont point me to some biased pro-life religious fanatic's blog. Or are you running out of arguments against pro-choice? Cite your neutral scientific sources for your post traumatic stress and where you state that life starts at conception.

How is giving this statement twisting the truth?
"ok, you got pregnant unexpectedly, you have a couple of choices, you can either keep the baby to term, keep it or give it up for adoption OR since this is still in very early stages, by law, you have the choice to terminate the pregnancy as well. Here are the pros and cons to both, here are the risks. Let me know when you made a choice."

[pach]

http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html


lol.

[Hanzo23]

^^ Ok, I'll accept that. 1 down, one to go pach. 

[pach]

okay, i'll accept that too.

 both of us have to live with two sets of realities - alot of women suffer because of abortion, but they can be rehabilitated if they choose to.

[Hanzo23]

^^Which they can, though some people also do terminate the pregnancy and move on. Since no two persons are exactly alike even in personalities, thats the beauty of freedom of choice, it doesnt automatically mean you should choose abortion over carrying it to term nor do I say that one action is better than the other. You can give as much pre and post counseling to help the decision of the individual to be more firm. At the end of the day, its still up to her and not society to decide. the opinion I have on pro-choice is not something I wouldnt as a "use and abuse", rather, it alleviates legal repercussions if she decides to have it terminated.

[tingeofpink07]

I'm against it. ^Abortion should not be legal, kc dba you're killing innocent lives? And it's against the church, bakit pa kailangang madamay nung baby sa ka-iresponsablehan ng mga magulang?

[^daph.kawaii^]

I am against it, try to watch vids on how abortion is done, just like what we did in our biology class, it's really inhuman!! If ever man na ang cause ng abortion eh dahil madami nang anak and poverty, edi in the first place, wag na silang magreproduce.  It's never the baby's fault, it's all their fault, so why should they bear the problem to the child? This is curtailing the right of humans to be borne and live, loved and be cared by their parents. Gash! Killing your own, that's really very immoral! 

[Hanzo23]

^^ Remember, not all pregnancies ARE EXPECTED. my former co worker's wife was already on the pill and he was using condoms, and the wife still got pregnant twice.

Though abortion is not an easily condonable, dont place a blanket statement that they should abstain from sex. Can you go through life by abstaining sex? Can you swear an oath to celibacy like catholic priests do? Note that those clergymen revert back to their basic human instinct from time to time. Let me know in a few years if your response is still the same.

Can you say the same statement as well to every single potential rapist in the entire world and prevent it? That's a pretty shallow response to be honest.

[^daph.kawaii^]

^^ Remember, not all pregnancies ARE EXPECTED. my former co worker's wife was already on the pill and he was using condoms, and the wife still got pregnant twice.

Though abortion is not an easily condonable, dont place a blanket statement that they should abstain from sex. Can you go through life by abstaining sex? Can you swear an oath to celibacy like catholic priests do? Note that those clergymen revert back to their basic human instinct from time to time. Let me know in a few years if your response is still the same.

Can you say the same statement as well to every single potential rapist in the entire world and prevent it? That's a pretty shallow response to be honest.

Abstaining from sex? Well, i think couples who already have many children should abstain, specially those who are in and below the poverty line. So if they plan to make another one(baby), they should be sure that they will live it, i mean won't abort it.

In cases in which the rapists make the move, of course if i enter  the point of view of the abused one, there's  kinda whisper that says abortion is applicable. If the raped one had trauma because of that and passes her anger to the baby, well it's up to her if she wants to kill it. But let me tell you, even though that baby is brought through an "abusing act" such as "rape", the baby in the womb has breath and has life, it shouldn't be blamed on them right? They're very innocent. If only we can hear their silent screams.