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Author Topic: Is Science a Religion?  (Read 1487 times)

Hanzo23

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2009, 06:56:10 am »
Yet with all the power of God, and his entire divine menagerie cannot save a human being from himself.

Its just amazing that people havent changed in their mindset of the unexplained for thousands of years, they still associate the unexplained as a "divine" sign. Consider this ideology though,

"Religions die along with the civilizations who believed in it"

Imagine if all faith based civilizations, disappeared in an instant, all texts about the history of it disappeared, would anyone remember if Jesus existed? I highly doubt it. What religion clings on to is the most fragile of the human psyche.

Imagine if this conversation ever happened,

Apologist: You dont believe in God's power? What if you died and you were wrong?

Scientist: Well then I'll admit i was wrong, but I have questions to ask God before He can give me my final judgement, what about you? You served this God for so long, what if you died and you found out I WAS RIGHT?


Anyone care to share what would be the apologist's response?
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand nor look through the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books
You shall not look through my eyes either nor take things from me
You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself

pach

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2009, 07:19:10 am »
it's funny how answers to previous questions are dodged, and yet, more questions keep on coming with the same futile result.

perhaps, religious people who retreat to their wall of faith are no different from atheists and agnostics who also retreat to their own wall of faith.

i guess we are in one giant seesaw whose fulcrum is what we call "free will"


I wish love was like volleyball, all you do is shout "Mine!!!" and everyone else backs off :)

Hanzo23

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2009, 10:16:38 am »
^and yet free will is what drives people to do what they want to do, regardless what whatever divine or non-divine reason behind it, whether a priest helping people in need, an individual who is a pacifist, to a serial killer who kills people for fun.

It's always going to be a paradox why God takes a passive approach to how mankind behaves in such a way. Religion will always find reasons why God exists. Science, atheists & agnostics will always find reasons to counter these arguments and provide proof not only of His non-existence, but questioning His true purpose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, according to the scriptures, a long time ago, God took a more pro-active approach to the people (Moses, the burning bush) or send one of his angelic messengers, or let Metatron, his seraph, to command whomever he needs to have His will done. Assumingly that we take into consideration that the bible is indeed true events, then why, 2000 years later, suddenly the passive approach? Even in the new testament, when Jesus Christ came, the father suddenly took the passive approach? Where is Metatron now in modern society?
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand nor look through the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books
You shall not look through my eyes either nor take things from me
You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself

pach

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2009, 10:45:48 am »
aright, hold on..aright just a minute.. i think i get this now, if i could just you know probe a bit more.

what is it exactly that you want God to do you for u?
I wish love was like volleyball, all you do is shout "Mine!!!" and everyone else backs off :)

pach

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2009, 10:50:05 am »
coz i think that faith must be presupposed..
I wish love was like volleyball, all you do is shout "Mine!!!" and everyone else backs off :)

Hanzo23

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2009, 11:03:00 am »
Thats where I have doubts about religion, they place the stories in the bible as though they "really happened", well, here's where I'm having problems believing this, if it really happened, and how they described how "pro-active" God was a long time ago, they why, thousands of years later, was there no more pro-active intervention of the Almighty? The bible talks about God and Jesus as beings or people that you could see and/or touch. I dont expect God will solve all the world's problems, nor want Him to do something for me. He should know what is happening to the world right now, and the exaggeration of religion of His real power just never ceases to amaze me, but who am I to judge the Almighty? He couldnt even prevent a civil war from breaking out in heaven a long time ago. Much more singularly prevent any wars that can destroy human existence today.
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand nor look through the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books
You shall not look through my eyes either nor take things from me
You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself

pach

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2009, 12:27:52 pm »
Quote
Thats where I have doubts about religion, they place the stories in the bible as though they "really happened", well, here's where I'm having problems believing this, if it really happened, and how they described how "pro-active" God was a long time ago, they why, thousands of years later, was there no more pro-active intervention of the Almighty?

Right. 2000 years later, why is there still no redemption?

Quote
The bible talks about God and Jesus as beings or people that you could see and/or touch. I dont expect God will solve all the world's problems, nor want Him to do something for me. He should know what is happening to the world right now, and the exaggeration of religion of His real power just never ceases to amaze me, but who am I to judge the Almighty? He couldnt even prevent a civil war from breaking out in heaven a long time ago. Much more singularly prevent any wars that can destroy human existence today.

Correct. Why does God appear so powerless before His tiny creatures?

---

You, my friend, have just about the exactly same question Peter Seewald asked of Pope Benedict when he was still a Cardinal.

This is worth quoting at length and I'm going to leave all the answering to Cardinal Ratzinger. I got this from the book "Salt of The Earth" (1996) Salz der erde: Christentum und Katholische Kirche an der Jahrtausendwende


Peter Seewald: For many who reflect on the working of God and the working of man in the world, considerable doubts arise. Has the world really been redeemed? Can we relly call the years after Christ years of Salvation?


Cardinal Ratzinger:

That is quite a bundle of observations and questions. The basic question is, as a matter of fact: Has Christianity really brought salvation, has it brought redemption, or hasn't it actually remained fruitless? Hasn't Christianity perhaps by now lost its power?

I think that we must say first that salvation, the salvation coming from God, is not quantitative, hence, no the sum of an addition. In technical discoveries there is a growth that may proceed by fits and starts but is nonetheless somehow continuous. The purely quantitative is measurable, and one can ascertain whether there is now more or less. A quantifiable progress in man's goodness, however, is impossible, because every man is new and because in a certain respect history begins anew with every man.

It is very important to learn this distinction. The goodness of man, to put it like that, is not quantifiable. We therefore cannot assume that a Christianity than in the year zero begins as a mustard seed ought to be a huge tree at the end and that everyone ought to be able to see how much better things have gotten century by century. There can be collapses and repeated ruptures, because redemption is always entrusted to the freedom of man, and God will never annul this freedom.


-End quote-

So here, we really cannot take freedom out of the equation. It's a given. It would be contrary to the essence of God (who is Pure Freedom alongside with Pure Truth) to just do away with freedom as easily as you would take of a leech from your skin.

Since man is essentially free, and that history begins anew with the creation of every man, the risk of the problems that have arisen from the past will never be gone, so long as man continues to live. That gives us the explanation why in the past religious skeptics (atheists, freethinkers, agnostics) have asked the same question and why until now their legacy continues to live in you.

Likewise for us Christians, who have answered these in the past and why until now, their legacy continues to live in me. If this world would be a perfect world under the exact laws of nature and cosmic mechanics, either man as man would not exist or that we would be living on instinct.

God gave man freedom and because we are free, we can choose to accept the grace of Faith, or choose to remain skeptical about it until, "hopefully", letters will form in the sky that go like "Im God and I exist".

Now, as to the question "so why can't just God put words in the sky I exist"?

We move on to Peter Seewald's next question and I will once again quote at length

Peter Seewald: Does this mean that too little power on this world?

Cardinal Ratzinger: In any case, he didn't want to exercise power in the way that we imagine it. This is, ofcourse, exactly the question that I, too, as you expressed in the beginning, would ask the world-spirit: "Why does he remain so powerless? Why does he reigh only in this curiously weak way, as a crucified man, as one who himself failed?"

But apparently, that is the way he wants to rule; that is the divine form of power. And the non-divine form of power obviously consists in imposing oneself and getting one's way and coercing


-Endquote-

I believe that modern society today has been to pre-occupied with the ideology of power. Thanks to the crass commercialism and competitive culture of Urban America, people have gradually come to wear colored lenses from which they view their surrounding world as a potential source of power or as a threat to their own power.

And I admit, even the individual members of the Church could see the world in such a way too. Would you believe that I sometimes think of you as a certain convert to Roman Catholicism, hence, more donations for the Church?

IF you trust me, then I'm going to tell you right now that that hasn't left my mind yet.  ;D

Then again, permit me to trust you that you think of me as a person who thinks I'm converting you to Roman Catholicism, hence, more donations coming from you. ;D

You see? This world view that has recently become popular sees everything from a power-relationship. Eventually, this power-relationship have risen to a higher level that now subjects God to this power-relationship's own standards and criteria for credibility. Hence the question: God, if you are powerful as you claim to be, why didn't you show your awesomeness before those who crucified you?

Or your question Hanzo, God, if you are so powerful, then why can't we touch you as have people 2000 years ago could? Where's the Pro-activeness? Where's the Weapons of Mass Destruction? In other words, GOD, I DEMAND A HUGE BANG FOR THE $BUCK$ I GAVE

The answer for that simply is, the God who is a God of love and freedom does not view the world in terms of power-relationship. Otherwise, if God were to be a God according to human standards, according to the standards of CNN and FOX and E! and American Idol and the U.S Government, how could he save the poor, the oppressed, the downtrodden and the ignorant?

So you see, the Crucifixion of Christ anticipates all further human suffering such as Auschwitz and the Maguindanao Massacre. It's not because God doesnt care why these evils happen. But because God says "If you're suffering right now, take a look at me buddy, coz I suffered before you, and I suffered more beyond your wildest imagination"

For the God of Love and Freedom, this power-structure is a totally alien entity for him. And rightly so, we should thank God for not thinking like us, otherwise we'd all be damned. The only ones you get to see in heaven are Paris Hilton, Bill Gates, and Edward Cullen.

And so the key here is, God acts in a way that is not coercive, because God cannot act that way. God acts in a way that totally leaves us to our own free choice, because God cannot make the choice for us. God created us free, and this freedom comes along with a risk.

God, who Is Himself Freedom, Has created a world in freedom.

So, if the One Who created the World is Free, then there is a sense of incalculability or unpredictability in the world, which is fashioned after God's design.

In other words, we can say that incalculability is an essential part of our world because the one Who made it is the God Who isn't ruled by necessity (passive mode) but He is the God who rules by Freedom (active mode)

what does this imply?

"A world created and willed on the risk of freedom and love is no longer just mathematics [mechanical forces, physical laws]

As the arena of love, it [the world] is also the playground of freedom and also incurs the risk of evil. It accepts the mystery of darkness for the sake of the greater light constituted by freedom and love"
- Pope Benedict XVI


And so, let me recap here: If I forgot to say that the Church viewed herself as a power structure in the past such as the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Witchunts, then could I say sorry in behalf of the Church?

And could you, as a human person, accept this forgiveness?


Exodus 3:13 -  Ehyeh Asher Eyheh - I AM WHO I AM

That's how we worship God. He isn't Burger King. We don't have it our way, we have it His way.

Could you summon all your strength to finally kneel down and admit "It takes great strength to recognize I am weak" ??
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 12:30:31 pm by pach »
I wish love was like volleyball, all you do is shout "Mine!!!" and everyone else backs off :)

Hanzo23

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 01:03:57 pm »
Quote
And could you, as a human person, accept this forgiveness?

I cannot accept the apology because I am fortunate enough to not have lived through that ordeal. So there is no apology that is necessary. I am fortunate to live in a country where religion and government are two seperate entities. They do not interfere with the decisions of one another. I am also fortunate to be in a country where the first amendment protects its people from raising a civil war.

I just hope the church learned from history what happens when you clash zealots of different faiths. For history is repeating itself as time is moving on. This is not just targeted to the catholic/christian faith, this goes for all the beliefs of the entire human existence
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand nor look through the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books
You shall not look through my eyes either nor take things from me
You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself

pach

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 02:17:45 pm »
Quote
I cannot accept the apology


Thank You.

Let me close this discussion by quoting scripture then:

Blessed are they who are poor in spirit, for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to them - Matthew 5:3

No more fresh water could be poured on a glass that is already full.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 02:26:31 pm by pach »
I wish love was like volleyball, all you do is shout "Mine!!!" and everyone else backs off :)

 

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