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Puppet Heart

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Is Science a Religion?
« on: November 14, 2009, 06:06:43 pm »
Is Science a Religion?

by Richard Dawkins

Published in the Humanist, January/February 1997

The 1996 Humanist of the Year asked this question in a speech accepting the honor from the American Humanist Association.

It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, "mad cow" disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate.

Faith, being belief that isn't based on evidence, is the principal vice of any religion. And who, looking at Northern Ireland or the Middle East, can be confident that the brain virus of faith is not exceedingly dangerous? One of the stories told to the young Muslim suicide bombers is that martyrdom is the quickest way to heaven — and not just heaven but a special part of heaven where they will receive their special reward of 72 virgin brides. It occurs to me that our best hope may be to provide a kind of "spiritual arms control": send in specially trained theologians to deescalate the going rate in virgins.

Given the dangers of faith — and considering the accomplishments of reason and observation in the activity called science — I find it ironic that, whenever I lecture publicly, there always seems to be someone who comes forward and says, "Of course, your science is just a religion like ours. Fundamentally, science just comes down to faith, doesn't it?"

Well, science is not religion and it doesn't just come down to faith. Although it has many of religion's virtues, it has none of its vices. Science is based upon verifiable evidence. Religious faith not only lacks evidence, its independence from evidence is its pride and joy, shouted from the rooftops. Why else would Christians wax critical of doubting Thomas? The other apostles are held up to us as exemplars of virtue because faith was enough for them. Doubting Thomas, on the other hand, required evidence. Perhaps he should be the patron saint of scientists.

One reason I receive the comment about science being a religion is because I believe in the fact of evolution. I even believe in it with passionate conviction. To some, this may superficially look like faith. But the evidence that makes me believe in evolution is not only overwhelmingly strong; it is freely available to anyone who takes the trouble to read up on it. Anyone can study the same evidence that I have and presumably come to the same conclusion. But if you have a belief that is based solely on faith, I can't examine your reasons. You can retreat behind the private wall of faith where I can't reach you.

Now in practice, of course, individual scientists do sometimes slip back into the vice of faith, and a few may believe so single-mindedly in a favorite theory that they occasionally falsify evidence. However, the fact that this sometimes happens doesn't alter the principle that, when they do so, they do it with shame and not with pride. The method of science is so designed that it usually finds them out in the end.

Science is actually one of the most moral, one of the most honest disciplines around — because science would completely collapse if it weren't for a scrupulous adherence to honesty in the reporting of evidence. (As James Randi has pointed out, this is one reason why scientists are so often fooled by paranormal tricksters and why the debunking role is better played by professional conjurors; scientists just don't anticipate deliberate dishonesty as well.) There are other professions (no need to mention lawyers specifically) in which falsifying evidence or at least twisting it is precisely what people are paid for and get brownie points for doing.

Science, then, is free of the main vice of religion, which is faith. But, as I pointed out, science does have some of religion's virtues. Religion may aspire to provide its followers with various benefits — among them explanation, consolation, and uplift. Science, too, has something to offer in these areas.
Humans have a great hunger for explanation. It may be one of the main reasons why humanity so universally has religion, since religions do aspire to provide explanations. We come to our individual consciousness in a mysterious universe and long to understand it. Most religions offer a cosmology and a biology, a theory of life, a theory of origins, and reasons for existence. In doing so, they demonstrate that religion is, in a sense, science; it's just bad science. Don't fall for the argument that religion and science operate on separate dimensions and are concerned with quite separate sorts of questions. Religions have historically always attempted to answer the questions that properly belong to science. Thus religions should not be allowed now to retreat away from the ground upon which they have traditionally attempted to fight. They do offer both a cosmology and a biology; however, in both cases it is false.

Consolation is harder for science to provide. Unlike religion, science cannot offer the bereaved a glorious reunion with their loved ones in the hereafter. Those wronged on this earth cannot, on a scientific view, anticipate a sweet comeuppance for their tormentors in a life to come. It could be argued that, if the idea of an afterlife is an illusion (as I believe it is), the consolation it offers is hollow. But that's not necessarily so; a false belief can be just as comforting as a true one, provided the believer never discovers its falsity. But if consolation comes that cheap, science can weigh in with other cheap palliatives, such as pain-killing drugs, whose comfort may or may not be illusory, but they do work.

Uplift, however, is where science really comes into its own. All the great religions have a place for awe, for ecstatic transport at the wonder and beauty of creation. And it's exactly this feeling of spine-shivering, breath-catching awe — almost worship — this flooding of the chest with ecstatic wonder, that modern science can provide. And it does so beyond the wildest dreams of saints and mystics. The fact that the supernatural has no place in our explanations, in our understanding of so much about the universe and life, doesn't diminish the awe. Quite the contrary. The merest glance through a microscope at the brain of an ant or through a telescope at a long-ago galaxy of a billion worlds is enough to render poky and parochial the very psalms of praise.

Now, as I say, when it is put to me that science or some particular part of science, like evolutionary theory, is just a religion like any other, I usually deny it with indignation. But I've begun to wonder whether perhaps that's the wrong tactic. Perhaps the right tactic is to accept the charge gratefully and demand equal time for science in religious education classes. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that an excellent case could be made for this. So I want to talk a little bit about religious education and the place that science might play in it.

I do feel very strongly about the way children are brought up. I'm not entirely familiar with the way things are in the United States, and what I say may have more relevance to the United Kingdom, where there is state-obliged, legally-enforced religious instruction for all children. That's unconstitutional in the United States, but I presume that children are nevertheless given religious instruction in whatever particular religion their parents deem suitable.

Which brings me to my point about mental child abuse. In a 1995 issue of the Independent, one of London's leading newspapers, there was a photograph of a rather sweet and touching scene. It was Christmas time, and the picture showed three children dressed up as the three wise men for a nativity play. The accompanying story described one child as a Muslim, one as a Hindu, and one as a Christian. The supposedly sweet and touching point of the story was that they were all taking part in this Nativity play.

What is not sweet and touching is that these children were all four years old. How can you possibly describe a child of four as a Muslim or a Christian or a Hindu or a Jew? Would you talk about a four-year-old economic monetarist? Would you talk about a four-year-old neo-isolationist or a four-year-old liberal Republican? There are opinions about the cosmos and the world that children, once grown, will presumably be in a position to evaluate for themselves. Religion is the one field in our culture about which it is absolutely accepted, without question — without even noticing how bizarre it is — that parents have a total and absolute say in what their children are going to be, how their children are going to be raised, what opinions their children are going to have about the cosmos, about life, about existence. Do you see what I mean about mental child abuse?

Looking now at the various things that religious education might be expected to accomplish, one of its aims could be to encourage children to reflect upon the deep questions of existence, to invite them to rise above the humdrum preoccupations of ordinary life and think sub specie aeternitatis.

Science can offer a vision of life and the universe which, as I've already remarked, for humbling poetic inspiration far outclasses any of the mutually contradictory faiths and disappointingly recent traditions of the world's religions.

For example, how could children in religious education classes fail to be inspired if we could get across to them some inkling of the age of the universe? Suppose that, at the moment of Christ's death, the news of it had started traveling at the maximum possible speed around the universe outwards from the earth. How far would the terrible tidings have traveled by now? Following the theory of special relativity, the answer is that the news could not, under any circumstances whatever, have reached more that one-fiftieth of the way across one galaxy — not one- thousandth of the way to our nearest neighboring galaxy in the 100-million-galaxy-strong universe. The universe at large couldn't possibly be anything other than indifferent to Christ, his birth, his passion, and his death. Even such momentous news as the origin of life on Earth could have traveled only across our little local cluster of galaxies. Yet so ancient was that event on our earthly time-scale that, if you span its age with your open arms, the whole of human history, the whole of human culture, would fall in the dust from your fingertip at a single stroke of a nail file.

The argument from design, an important part of the history of religion, wouldn't be ignored in my religious education classes, needless to say. The children would look at the spellbinding wonders of the living kingdoms and would consider Darwinism alongside the creationist alternatives and make up their own minds. I think the children would have no difficulty in making up their minds the right way if presented with the evidence. What worries me is not the question of equal time but that, as far as I can see, children in the United Kingdom and the United States are essentially given no time with evolution yet are taught creationism (whether at school, in church, or at home).

It would also be interesting to teach more than one theory of creation. The dominant one in this culture happens to be the Jewish creation myth, which is taken over from the Babylonian creation myth. There are, of course, lots and lots of others, and perhaps they should all be given equal time (except that wouldn't leave much time for studying anything else). I understand that there are Hindus who believe that the world was created in a cosmic butter churn and Nigerian peoples who believe that the world was created by God from the excrement of ants. Surely these stories have as much right to equal time as the Judeo-Christian myth of Adam and Eve.

So much for Genesis; now let's move on to the prophets. Halley's Comet will return without fail in the year 2062. Biblical or Delphic prophecies don't begin to aspire to such accuracy; astrologers and Nostradamians dare not commit themselves to factual prognostications but, rather, disguise their charlatanry in a smokescreen of vagueness. When comets have appeared in the past, they've often been taken as portents of disaster. Astrology has played an important part in various religious traditions, including Hinduism. The three wise men I mentioned earlier were said to have been led to the cradle of Jesus by a star. We might ask the children by what physical route do they imagine the alleged stellar influence on human affairs could travel.

Incidentally, there was a shocking program on the BBC radio around Christmas 1995 featuring an astronomer, a bishop, and a journalist who were sent off on an assignment to retrace the steps of the three wise men. Well, you could understand the participation of the bishop and the journalist (who happened to be a religious writer), but the astronomer was a supposedly respectable astronomy writer, and yet she went along with this! All along the route, she talked about the portents of when Saturn and Jupiter were in the ascendant up Uranus or whatever it was. She doesn't actually believe in astrology, but one of the problems is that our culture has been taught to become tolerant of it, vaguely amused by it — so much so that even scientific people who don't believe in astrology sort of think it's a bit of harmless fun. I take astrology very seriously indeed: I think it's deeply pernicious because it undermines rationality, and I should like to see campaigns against it.

When the religious education class turns to ethics, I don't think science actually has a lot to say, and I would replace it with rational moral philosophy. Do the children think there are absolute standards of right and wrong? And if so, where do they come from? Can you make up good working principles of right and wrong, like "do as you would be done by" and "the greatest good for the greatest number" (whatever that is supposed to mean)? It's a rewarding question, whatever your personal morality, to ask as an evolutionist where morals come from; by what route has the human brain gained its tendency to have ethics and morals, a feeling of right and wrong?

Should we value human life above all other life? Is there a rigid wall to be built around the species Homo sapiens, or should we talk about whether there are other species which are entitled to our humanistic sympathies? Should we, for example, follow the right-to-life lobby, which is wholly preoccupied with human life, and value the life of a human fetus with the faculties of a worm over the life of a thinking and feeling chimpanzee? What is the basis of this fence that we erect around Homo sapiens — even around a small piece of fetal tissue? (Not a very sound evolutionary idea when you think about it.) When, in our evolutionary descent from our common ancestor with chimpanzees, did the fence suddenly rear itself up?

Well, moving on, then, from morals to last things, to eschatology, we know from the second law of thermodynamics that all complexity, all life, all laughter, all sorrow, is hell bent on leveling itself out into cold nothingness in the end. They — and we — can never be more then temporary, local buckings of the great universal slide into the abyss of uniformity.

We know that the universe is expanding and will probably expand forever, although it's possible it may contract again. We know that, whatever happens to the universe, the sun will engulf the earth in about 60 million centuries from now.

Time itself began at a certain moment, and time may end at a certain moment — or it may not. Time may come locally to an end in miniature crunches called black holes. The laws of the universe seem to be true all over the universe. Why is this? Might the laws change in these crunches? To be really speculative, time could begin again with new laws of physics, new physical constants. And it has even been suggested that there could be many universes, each one isolated so completely that, for it, the others don't exist. Then again, there might be a Darwinian selection among universes.

So science could give a good account of itself in religious education. But it wouldn't be enough. I believe that some familiarity with the King James version of the Bible is important for anyone wanting to understand the allusions that appear in English literature. Together with the Book of Common Prayer, the Bible gets 58 pages in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations. Only Shakespeare has more. I do think that not having any kind of biblical education is unfortunate if children want to read English literature and understand the provenance of phrases like "through a glass darkly," "all flesh is as grass," "the race is not to the swift," "crying in the wilderness," "reaping the whirlwind," "amid the alien corn," "Eyeless in Gaza," "Job's comforters," and "the widow's mite."

I want to return now to the charge that science is just a faith. The more extreme version of that charge — and one that I often encounter as both a scientist and a rationalist — is an accusation of zealotry and bigotry in scientists themselves as great as that found in religious people. Sometimes there may be a little bit of justice in this accusation; but as zealous bigots, we scientists are mere amateurs at the game. We're content to argue with those who disagree with us. We don't kill them.

But I would want to deny even the lesser charge of purely verbal zealotry. There is a very, very important difference between feeling strongly, even passionately, about something because we have thought about and examined the evidence for it on the one hand, and feeling strongly about something because it has been internally revealed to us, or internally revealed to somebody else in history and subsequently hallowed by tradition. There's all the difference in the world between a belief that one is prepared to defend by quoting evidence and logic and a belief that is supported by nothing more than tradition, authority, or revelation.

Source: http://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/dawkins.html

---

Freethinkers, unite!

In my opinion, this is a very good article. It's a mind opener. It takes on issues that are currently being dismissed as "common sense" by many. Though I am biased and inclined towards Dawkins' stance, I would still like to hear ideas and opinions.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 06:14:16 pm by Puppet Heart »
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pach

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2009, 02:38:27 pm »
Well I would like to say Dawkins is wrong.


Faith is not the enemy, nor is it religion.

But the wrong kind of faith and the wrong kind of religion is the enemy.

That is the danger, and it presents a greater threat than the world's entire nuclear arsenal.

It does not take common sense, but it only takes man's free choice to reject or acknowledge that religion is not the enemy of reason. It is her ally.

A dose of free thought is good, but don't poison your mind with these things.

there is a logical contradiction once again - it's funny how a person "liberated" by free thought has become as dogmatic and narrow minded as the religion he professes to loathe.

what's your basis for having a bias towards Richard Dawkins? Just because he's a free thinker? Oh, on that ground then, you are in no way different from a mujahideen or a suicide bomber who believes in his faith just because he wants to.

A classic case of the oppressed becoming the oppressor.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 02:43:17 pm by pach »
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Puppet Heart

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2009, 04:18:27 pm »
Quote
But the wrong kind of faith and the wrong kind of religion is the enemy.

How can one distinguish "right" faith from "wrong" faith?

Quote
A dose of free thought is good, but don't poison your mind with these things.

How do we know then if our minds are being "corrupted" or being "freed"?

Quote
there is a logical contradiction once again - it's funny how a person "liberated" by free thought has become as dogmatic and narrow minded as the religion he professes to loathe.

A classic case of the oppressed becoming the oppressor.

This one, I cannot deny. It is true. He became as zealous and as shackled to his belief like the enemies he hated. And what is more, this article is no longer a defense of Science, but rather, an attack on Religion.

Quote
what's your basis for having a bias towards Richard Dawkins? Just because he's a free thinker? Oh, on that ground then, you are in no way different from a mujahideen or a suicide bomber who believes in his faith just because he wants to.

Well, actually, my bias towards Dawkins lies in his view that Science can be as equally as ecstatic as Religion.

Also, I should have pointed out that I do not adopt every set of belief he claimed in that article.

But now that you've mentioned it, I kind of wondered. What does separate the suicide bombers from the freethinkers? A "wrong" kind of faith?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 04:38:05 pm by Puppet Heart »
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pach

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2009, 02:35:42 am »
Quote
How can one distinguish "right" faith from "wrong" faith?

The criterion is Truth; the conformity between object-knower and the object known.

Truth is the only measuring stick for correct living, correct knowledge and correct worship, because truth cannot contradict another truth, just as much as being cannot negate another being.

If it is indeed true faith and true worship,then it can never put a person to harm.

Quote
How do we know then if our minds are being "corrupted" or being "freed"?


WE go back again to the concept of Truth and Justice :)

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This one, I cannot deny. It is true. He became as zealous and as shackled to his belief like the enemies he hated. And what is more, this article is no longer a defense of Science, but rather, an attack on Religion.

Yes vin, congratulate yourself for realizing that.

Now I'm not stepping on your free-thought, infact, I'm even commending you on that one.

That is your most valuable-asset, your human freedom, so never let somebody take it away from you, not even Religion.

I dare say not even God because God can't take away your freedom.

Quote
Well, actually, my bias towards Dawkins lies in his view that Science can be as equally as ecstatic as Religion.

Ahuh. There have been instances in the past when people do indeed experience a certain rapture after a scientific discovery.

It is good, it is a very beautiful human experience  :)

But uhm, there have also been ecstasies amongst religious mystics that have literally halted them from their work, not because they ended in vain but because they no longer need to think, for the Truth has already possessed them.

Take for example Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274)

From the time he became a Dominican in his early 20's until the last few months of his life, Thomas dedicated himself to the pursuit of science - in this context, it is taken to mean as scientia or knowledge, or philosophy (secular knowledge) and theology; scientia sacra (sacred science)

He has written well over 8 million words on his treatises regarding logic, metaphysics and theology.

Then at one point while resuming his works, he entered into a sudden ecstasy. In this ecstasy, he witnessed Jesus Christ on the Crucifix talking to him. The voice said "You have written well of me, Thomas. What do you want and it shall be given to you?"

At that, Aquinas said "Nothing but you, O God"

After that experience, Thomas said to his fellow Dominicans "All my work seems to be straw" (hence, of little and feeble quality)

Aquinas would be dead in a matter of weeks.

---

Applied science and psychology may have its own valid and true reasons for explaining the ecstasy - perhaps Thomas was in a delirium for having fasted so many times. Perhaps Thomas was so into what he was doing that he may have gotten hallucinations.

Granting that such physiological impulses were at work during the ecstasies, can we hold it against Thomas the Truth of what he experienced?

Going back on the principle: No truth can contradict another truth

And so the reality is that Thomas experienced such and such to the extent that only himself, and the faith of those who believe in his witness that will ultimately make his claim true and valid.

But it is true and valid not because we have believed. Quite the other way around: because it is true and valid and on such account we have believed. Truth always has an objective "outside" basis.

The burden of proof will once again lie on the skeptics.

Now we can say that science may have its own reasons, theology and mysticism may have their own, but if the fact at hand is true, then whatever findings science and faith may have do not contradict one another, but even reinforce each other.  :)

God bless you, keep on questioning the Faith, so that not only will you get to learn the realities of science and matter, but also that of faith. For no truth can contradict another truth.  :)

Quote
But now that you've mentioned it, I kind of wondered. What does separate the suicide bombers from the freethinkers? A "wrong" kind of faith?


for the suicide bombers, indeed it is a "wrong" kind of worship.

for the radical free-thinkers, it is a wrong kind of morality that stems from a wrong view of reality :)

now on the point of "wrong" - I'm willing to delve deeper into that topic but I don't think this is the right thread.

you can create one and there I will be happy to answer all your questions, as my capabilities will permit me. With God's grace, I hope and I believe
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 02:43:38 am by pach »
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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2009, 10:05:03 pm »
Science itself is not in the same league as religion for the reason that, religion does not always support scientific facts.

I believe that the truth that everyone is searching for is not something that can be taught, but rather realized not just relying your belief in the scriptures, truth is something you come to realize by observing the world around you.
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pach

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2009, 02:20:56 pm »
Quote
religion does not always support scientific facts.

As a rationalist, I go with the thesis that no truth can contradict another truth.

Now, ff there are are religious truths, how can these go counter against scientific truths?
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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 02:18:10 pm »
As a rationalist, I go with the thesis that no truth can contradict another truth.

Now, ff there are are religious truths, how can these go counter against scientific truths?
what about the assumption of people to heaven, is there scientific proof or truth that this can happen?

Elijah
2 Kings 2:1-12
"And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind...And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan....And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven....And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more..."

Thats some dramatic exit (or should i say entrace? -at least this is hollywood material) Scientists will just laugh at this article if they will say that this can really happen in real life and they will say this is true in the physical world. If you were taken by a whirlwind,
A) you'd be ripped to shreds, because of any material thats taken along with you can hit your body and decimate it
B) after being ripped to shreds, I guess stuff will still remain AFTER the whirlwind is gone. Partly because there is such a thing as GRAVITY

You dont see any popes getting this kind of dramatic exits when they retire or die
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You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2009, 07:42:05 pm »
Definitely not.
Science is whole lot different compare to theology. There are things science CAN'T explain. If its called religion by some people in US. Then I think its not religion, because religion has only one GOD, believes in one God and worships one God.

pach

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 03:47:16 am »
"Only Conformity is the guarantee of Freedom" - Pope Benedict XVI



Quote
what about the assumption of people to heaven, is there scientific proof or truth that this can happen?

Is science above religion? What right does science have to usurp the Sacred Wisdom of religion?

Quote
You dont see any popes getting this kind of dramatic exits when they retire or die

Why do you think like a protestant? Why all this "what ifs" "i believe" "i thought so " "i shouldve"

I will tell you right now - you have the fulness of revelation in you, because you belong to the Holy Mother Church.

YOu have 2000 years of the deposit of faith, of the merit of Christ and his holy saints, you have the wisdom the Church has gained all throughout these years.

You have the fullness of the faith, now bow down to the Holy Mother Church.

I have explained again and again that the bible is not to be taken literally. How hard is that to understand?
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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 11:06:44 am »
"Only Conformity is the guarantee of Freedom" - Pope Benedict XVI



Is science above religion? What right does science have to usurp the Sacred Wisdom of religion?

Why do you think like a protestant? Why all this "what ifs" "i believe" "i thought so " "i shouldve"

I will tell you right now - you have the fulness of revelation in you, because you belong to the Holy Mother Church.

YOu have 2000 years of the deposit of faith, of the merit of Christ and his holy saints, you have the wisdom the Church has gained all throughout these years.

You have the fullness of the faith, now bow down to the Holy Mother Church.

I have explained again and again that the bible is not to be taken literally. How hard is that to understand?

"Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
  --  Albert Einstein

Why I lean so much to science and not the holy mother church? Its the true freedom that science provides you to explore your life. What has science provided the human civilization for the past 2000 years? Too many to count. Human life has been significantly better every century that passes and advances discovered. Human life expectancy itself, is now better because of science.

What about religion? Have you ever asked yourself the serious question of what has religion really given you? Aside from "promises" of a better life in the afterlife? This sounds more like a politician running for election, and you know thats gonna end up crappy anyways because there are no alternatives. You rely and base your entire faith on the Holy Mother Church but when push comes to shove, you come running back to science to fix your problems.

read this article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/02/father-found-guilty-daugh_n_249565.html

Open your eyes, religious man, it is exactly this religious stupidity that cost precious lives. You cannot justify that God will heal your every single illness or problem of every man in this world. Faithful praying will not rid the world of aids. Faithful praying will not rid the world of hunger, Faithful praying will not rid the world of terrorism. Pray that science will figure out a way to cure cancer, pray that science will figure out a way to cure aids, pray that science will figure out hybrid  edible plants that will grow regardless of terrain. Pray that this will happen in your lifetime for if science does not discover them in your lifetime, it may take hundreds or thoudsands of years before plants evolve again to something close to it.
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand nor look through the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books
You shall not look through my eyes either nor take things from me
You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 11:37:51 am »
This is where you are blatantly wrong my friend.

Western Civilization owes its foundation, resurgence and preservation in an entirely Christian Culture.

A careful reading of the History of Western Civilization will show you this.
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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 12:42:12 pm »
This is where you are blatantly wrong my friend.

Western Civilization owes its foundation, resurgence and preservation in an entirely Christian Culture.

A careful reading of the History of Western Civilization will show you this.
I am scanning back into the european history in relation to christian culture, so far, I know that christianity is used to unite the pagan tribes by the king of the Francs, Clovis I. This was a wise decision to unite the land under his rule (there is an even more interesting tidbit about this that relates from the old mythologies springing to the newly found faith in early Europe)

Now, speaking aside from centuries worth of dispute between the Holy Roman Catholics and the Orthodox church, I can give credit that they did fund the great universities which provided the springboard for art, music and architecture.

This in turn have lead to the rennaissance, and this sprang the further scientific understanding and in which that the church further excommunicated some early scientists for proving that their teachings do not coincide with their findings.

You're point in the chrisitan culture did aid it up to a certain point to springboard the age of understanding, though in turn this also produced further conflicts since the church weilded more power and wealth upon providing these institutions.

Still, the question on the thread is "Is science a religion?" I do not think so, for me, and this is purely an opinion, Science is a culture, that slowly but surely branched out of religion.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2009, 01:26:20 pm by Hanzo23 »
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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2009, 04:10:16 am »
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Why I lean so much to science and not the holy mother church? Its the true freedom that science provides you to explore your life.
Science can only give us particular, relative freedom because science is not the end-all-be-all of human existence.
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What has science provided the human civilization for the past 2000 years?


Alot, and if it were not for the Holy Mother Church, Western Civilization as we know it wouldn't have come about.

Who saved literature and arts during the onslaught of the Barbarian Invasions? The Church. Who took on the reigns of administration after the Roman Empire collapsed in the 5th century? The Church Who kept all the depository of knowledge during the time when literacy rate was very scant? The Church Who invented the Scientific Method? The Catholic Church Who owns the most number of educational institutions and centres of higher learning from the age of Antiquity until present? The Church. The Church is Civilization and Civilization is the church. Only with the advent of these, uh, shall I say, "subversives" did the foundations of power transfer from the Holy Mother Church into unworthy hands.

 
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Human life has been significantly better every century that passes and advances discovered. Human life expectancy itself, is now better because of science.

 Agree, and science owes its existence to the toleration and wisdom of Ecclesiastical authorities. Looking back into history, perhaps we could explain why religious extremism exists, and it is because of the decrease in free thought, which was quite evident in Islamic and at a certain extent, ultra-Orthodox Judaism.

 No one will find any reversion to intellectual fundamentalism/extremism among Roman Catholic thinkers because the pursuit of science (and philosophy) was directly under the aegis of Ecclesiastical Authorities. For example, In both Moslem and Jewish thought, the attempts of great thinkers to deal with the relationship between revelation and the new Aristotelian science thus ended in defeat and disaster at the beginning of the thirteenth century. Islam turned away from science because it was considered heretical by religious leaders who were able to obtain the assistance of fanatical princes to destroy rational speculation. The general decline of vigor in Islamic civilization undoubtedly also played a part in the termination of the great scientific and philosophical movement in the Arab World. Judaism at that time turned its back on science and secular thought, partly again because of hostility of orthodox leaders and partly because of the ghettoization of European Jewry which began in the 12th century.1 This alone would point out that from the Church's perspective (which I mean to be the Holy Roman Catholic Church, not other christian churches), science is no enemy of the faith, because both are in an ever-aggressive search for truth And to add, it's not science itself that solved human problems, for science does not have a mind of its own, science does not have a will of its own, it does not have a freedom of its own.

 The people who solved the problems of humanity, or discovered scientific breakthroughs were themselves Roman Catholics, priests, monks and lay persons. The Augustinian Gregor Mendel, the Father of Genetics, Marie Curie, Louis Pasteur, Alexander Flemming, Nicolaus Copernicus, even Rene Descartes was a very, very devout Catholic. Those who are living right now, we could add Fr Michel Heller (a Polish mathematician-priest), Fr. John Polkinghorne (Anglican quantum physicist priest), Father Jose Funes (Chief astronomer at the Vatican Observatory) So as you can see, the Catholic Church has a vast array of intellectual workers at her service, and these people do not and cannot manipulate scientific truths, since science is an exact intellectual endeavour.

Faith, well, at least the Catholic Faith, does not contradict science, rather, it is her ally. I should let you know that I stress the Catholic faith because there are faiths that shun science, such as the christian group which was featured on the website you mentioned.
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What about religion? Have you ever asked yourself the serious question of what has religion really given you?
Well for one, it has given me hope and it continues to give me hope. I can fairly say that if the Roman Catholic Church should be categorized as a corporate entity, then it engages itself in the business of hope. There are more than 1 billion Roman Catholics in the world - how many of them might I ask, have the time, intellectual capability or money in order to study to and think out lofty theological concepts just so they could say "I know there's a God" ? Can the ordinary street sweeper do that? Can the farmer do that? Can the sampaguita vendor in front of Quiapo Minor Basilica think out Metaphysics and Ontology? Obviously the answer would be no, but then, what keeps them going? Isn't it that it is the child-like, innocent and even obscurant faith of these little people that enables them to face another harsh reality of a new day? Ofcourse, the Holy Mother Church, who through her Priests, Missionaries, Nuns and other concerned people that these people are receiving the help they need. They might not get a monthly welfare, but through the work of these holy men and women, more and more people are given hope and strength to endure the present world that's absued and exploited by the godless. The church gives out money to the poor, the church teaches the ignorant, the church heals the sick who cannot pay. I am proud to say I belong to such a Church - The Holy Roman Catholic Church.

That is why people who think we are an elitist religion are utterly wrong. Does your Church do that to your faithful? Oh, I remember, you don't have a church. Again, let me point out that without the Roman Catholic Church, civilization as we know it would not have survived. Do you know who jump started global capitalism, which enables you to live a comfortable life? It's the Knights Templars. And did you know who put 40 million Russians under a life of toiling death in order to create an "earthly paradise"? It was Ioseph Stalin who was an atheist.

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Aside from "promises" of a better life in the afterlife?

 My friend, those are not merely promises - they are a living reality. Ask who is the biggest, wealthiest and most charitable institution in the world? You guessed it right. Who helped thousands of Jews escape from Nazi Persecution during World War II? IT was the Vatican City under the reign of Pope Pius XII What organization offers "sanctuary" to oppressed political prisoners, minorities, and homosexuals in intolerant societies? The Church. As a matter of fact, the Church plays a big role in the prevention of Aids in Africa and for the care of prostitutes and homosexuals who are shunned by a "polite" secular society.

The Holy Mother Church had done a greater good in a time that spanned more than 2 thousand years than any single scientific revolution or paradigm shift. The mere fact that She has salvaged a society that enabled an intellectual and technological flowering (and still continues to do so) should merit her some sort of recognition by the secular world.

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You rely and base your entire faith on the Holy Mother Church but when push comes to shove, you come running back to science to fix your problems.


On the contrary. This has been the constant temptation of the contemporary world which is very similar to what Our Lord Jesus Christ enountered in His own battle with the temptation of the devil.

In Matthew 4:3, we read "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread", again in Matthew 27:40 - "If you are the Son of God, come down from the Cross"

This demand for proof is a constantly recurring theme in the story of Jesus' life; again and again he is reproached for having failed to prove himself sufficiently, for having hitherto failed to work that great miracle that will remove all ambiguity and every contradiction, so as to make it indisputable clear for everyone who and what he is or is not.2

Modern Society mocks God, mocks the Holy Mother Church precisely in this context. Society forces God to come to its own terms, it seeks to put God into a test tube for society to have free reign on whatever we want to make of Him.

Mockery, derision, folly, skepticism, even downright hatred. God is in a test-tube, God is in a cage and there we can do whatever we want from Him because he does not want to show his awesome power to a panoply of seemingly all-knowing Scientists and intellectuals.

When push comes to shove, the greatest lie Science can tell humanity is "I can do it".

For example, the aid offered by the West to developing countries has been purely technically and materially based., and not only has left God out of the picture, but has driven men away from God. And this aid, proudly claiming to "know better", is itself what first turned the "third world" into what we mean today by that term.  It has thrust aside indigenous religious, ethical and social structures and filled the resulting vacuum with its technocratic mind-set. The idea was the we could turn stones into bread; instead, our "aid" has only given stones in place of bread3


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Open your eyes, religious man, it is exactly this religious stupidity that cost precious lives.

I have read the article, the bad news is that we have learned about this very tragic and stupid fact.

The better news is that it reinforces all the more the fact that in this world, there are false religions, religions claiming to know a better way, religions claiming to give you a 100% satisfaction guaranteed, religions claiming to know the easier way to do things.

I would never wonder why such religious sects exist in America, where almost everything can be sold and bought. Even the concept of religion has turned into a money-making business similar to what Jesus had encountered in the Temple, when merchants and money-changers were inside the Temple selling all kinds of absurdities.

The fact is, we see more and more the spreading of these tiny christian sects that are non-Catholic. Mind you, even if they utter on their lips "Jesus Saves!", Truth hits them right in the face with the harsh realities of life.

The true teachings of Jesus Christ, as received by the Catholic Church, never offered an easy, 3-step way out, for Jesus Himself says "If you are serious about your discipleship, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me".

It is indeed religious stupidity, but the Catholic Church cannot be responsible for it because an easy way out has never been part of Her teachings in the first place.

If I may add, it is even a Catholic belief that "grace builds upon nature". This principle was expounded by Saint Thomas Aquinas.

In a nutshell, this principle says that God does not act magically, rather, he acts through and with people, events and the material world. And so it is obviously wrong to think prayer will wipe out all one's problems.

When + Pope John Paul II +, (God bless Our Holy Father's soul) was in his death bed, the Cardinals of the Church did not stop at just praying, but they sent him to one of Italy's leading medical centres, Gemelli Hospital.

That Christian sect was wrong in its beliefs, because it used an inordinate and undue spiritual power to deal with a biological concern, the key word being "inordinate and undue".

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You cannot justify that God will heal your every single illness or problem of every man in this world. Faithful praying will not rid the world of aids. Faithful praying will not rid the world of hunger, Faithful praying will not rid the world of terrorism.

Good point. This all the more strengthens the power of knowledge, reason over blind faith which the Catholic Church I shall once again say, has never preached.

And we make this same demand of God and Christ and his Church throughout the whole of history. "If you exist, God", we say, "then you'll just have to show yourself. You'll have to part the clouds that conceal you and give us the clarity that we deserve. If, you, Christ, are really the Son of God, and not just another one of the enlightened individuals who keep appearing in the course of history, then you'll just have to prove it more clearly than you are doing now. And if the Church is really supposed to be yours, you'll have to make that much more obvious than it is at present"4

But that is missing the whole point - faithful prayer can do nothing if it is not coupled by works, deeds, actions. The Church will be a sterile organization if she chooses to lock her up in her monasteries and convents. And so that is why you see Her in the inner cities, in the ghettoes, in the universities, in scientific institutions, in political institutions.

It has been the constant role of the Church to be in the world, but not of the world.

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Pray that science will figure out a way to cure cancer, pray that science will figure out a way to cure aids, pray that science will figure out hybrid  edible plants that will grow regardless of terrain. Pray that this will happen in your lifetime for if science does not discover them in your lifetime, it may take hundreds or thoudsands of years before plants evolve again to something close to it.

Science does not have all the answers to life's problems. Even if Science were there to make life more comfortable, it does not guarantee man's happiness.

Explain then why the richest, most handsome, most powerful people still chose to kill themselves while the struggling single mother of 2 children still clings to dear life through faith and prayer in some god? And in spite of this, still has the guts to laugh and make happy her lot in life?

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I am scanning back into the european history in relation to christian culture, so far, I know that christianity is used to unite the pagan tribes by the king of the Francs, Clovis I. This was a wise decision to unite the land under his rule (there is an even more interesting tidbit about this that relates from the old mythologies springing to the newly found faith in early Europe)

This is true, but that is not the entirety of the History of the Catholic Church or of Christian Europe.

Try scanning to the days of Pope Leo the Great, Pope Gregory the Great, Saint Patrick of Ireland, and  Saint Augustine of Hippo.


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You're point in the chrisitan culture did aid it up to a certain point to springboard the age of understanding, though in turn this also produced further conflicts since the church weilded more power and wealth upon providing these institutions.

That was the inevitable inertia when you're head of Civilization for a whole millenium. Could we blame the Church as a human organization for that?

Unless you have a personal hatred for the power and wealth of the Church, I can't do anything about that, but I shall see to it that this hatred must face the severest scrutinies of reason. 


The choice is yours, if you're really finding the truth wherever it may lead you, then you wont be afraid to find it in the Scriptures and the Church.

If you've got more questions, I will be happy to serve your faith.
 ---

1. Cantor, Norman F. The Civilization of the Middle Ages. 1991: New York. Harper Collins

2. Ratzinger, Joseph. Jesus of Nazareth. 2007: New York. Doubleday

3. Ibid.

4. Ibid.


« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 11:48:28 am by pach »
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Hanzo23

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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 01:37:23 am »
Science can only give us particular, relative freedom because science is not the end-all-be-all of human existence. 
True, good point
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Alot, and if it were not for the Holy Mother Church, Western Civilization as we know it wouldn't have come about.

Who saved literature and arts during the onslaught of the Barbarian Invasions? The Church. Who took on the reigns of administration after the Roman Empire collapsed in the 5th century? The Church Who kept all the depository of knowledge during the time when literacy rate was very scant? The Church Who invented the Scientific Method? The Catholic Church Who owns the most number of educational institutions and centres of higher learning from the age of Antiquity until present? The Church. The Church is Civilization and Civilization is the church. Only with the advent of these, uh, shall I say, "subversives" did the foundations of power transfer from the Holy Mother Church into unworthy hands.
great points, however, add these as well Who contributed to the inhuman torture and deaths of thousands because of the inquisition? The church, Who ALSO caused of the slaughter of millions during the crusades? The church, and note, this wasnt just a one time deal, they did the crusades over and over.
 
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 The people who solved the problems of humanity, or discovered scientific breakthroughs were themselves Roman Catholics, priests, monks and lay persons. The Augustinian Gregor Mendel, the Father of Genetics, Marie Curie, Louis Pasteur, Alexander Flemming, Nicolaus Copernicus, even Rene Descartes was a very, very devout Catholic. Those who are living right now, we could add Fr Michel Heller (a Polish mathematician-priest), Fr. John Polkinghorne (Anglican quantum physicist priest), Father Jose Funes (Chief astronomer at the Vatican Observatory) So as you can see, the Catholic Church has a vast array of intellectual workers at her service, and these people do not and cannot manipulate scientific truths, since science is an exact intellectual endeavour.
Yes however, any teachings that contradicted early religious teachings that were given were severely scrutenized and scientists were excommunicated by the church or placed on house arrest. In the trial of Galileo, he was prosecuted upon the instigation of a Dominican Friar because it violated the scripture. Galileo himself thanked God for giving him the talent to see the world that was once hidden upon the discovery of the telescope. However it was religion that prosecuted him for the debunking the theory that the Earth was center center of the universe. The church may have revised that teaching now since they formally apologized to Galileo 500 years after his death
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That is why people who think we are an elitist religion are utterly wrong. Does your Church do that to your faithful? Oh, I remember, you don't have a church. Again, let me point out that without the Roman Catholic Church, civilization as we know it would not have survived. Do you know who jump started global capitalism, which enables you to live a comfortable life? It's the Knights Templars. And did you know who put 40 million Russians under a life of toiling death in order to create an "earthly paradise"? It was Ioseph Stalin who was an atheist.
Yes, the knights templar's highest accomplishments included capitalism which became the basis of many advancements today such as banking, credit cards etc. However, they themselves are not the best example since they are tied to the crusades, and under the direct control of the Pope.

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My friend, those are not merely promises - they are a living reality. Ask who is the biggest, wealthiest and most charitable institution in the world? You guessed it right. Who helped thousands of Jews escape from Nazi Persecution during World War II? IT was the Vatican City under the reign of Pope Pius XII What organization offers "sanctuary" to oppressed political prisoners, minorities, and homosexuals in intolerant societies? The Church. As a matter of fact, the Church plays a big role in the prevention of Aids in Africa and for the care of prostitutes and homosexuals who are shunned by a "polite" secular society.

Please look up Krunoslav Draganović, a Roman Catholic Priest who is accused of helping Nazis escape prosecution during WWII

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The Holy Mother Church had done a greater good in a time that spanned more than 2 thousand years than any single scientific revolution or paradigm shift. The mere fact that She has salvaged a society that enabled an intellectual and technological flowering (and still continues to do so) should merit her some sort of recognition by the secular world.
 

On the contrary. This has been the constant temptation of the contemporary world which is very similar to what Our Lord Jesus Christ enountered in His own battle with the temptation of the devil.

In Matthew 4:3, we read "If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread", again in Matthew 27:40 - "If you are the Son of God, come down from the Cross"

This demand for proof is a constantly recurring theme in the story of Jesus' life; again and again he is reproached for having failed to prove himself sufficiently, for having hitherto failed to work that great miracle that will remove all ambiguity and every contradiction, so as to make it indisputable clear for everyone who and what he is or is not.2
Again, religion did give huge benefits to the world, in turn as well, religion may lead to fanaticism, and the most inhumane crimes have been done because it was done "in God's name".

Quote
Modern Society mocks God, mocks the Holy Mother Church precisely in this context. Society forces God to come to its own terms, it seeks to put God into a test tube for society to have free reign on whatever we want to make of Him.

Mockery, derision, folly, skepticism, even downright hatred. God is in a test-tube, God is in a cage and there we can do whatever we want from Him because he does not want to show his awesome power to a panoply of seemingly all-knowing Scientists and intellectuals.

When push comes to shove, the greatest lie Science can tell humanity is "I can do it".

For example, the aid offered by the West to developing countries has been purely technically and materially based., and not only has left God out of the picture, but has driven men away from God. And this aid, proudly claiming to "know better", is itself what first turned the "third world" into what we mean today by that term.  It has thrust aside indigenous religious, ethical and social structures and filled the resulting vacuum with its technocratic mind-set. The idea was the we could turn stones into bread; instead, our "aid" has only given stones in place of bread3
It is indeed sad that modern society has been very materialistic. Why men would like to see an actual intervention of God is to have a direct answer to the questions that came since the dawn of time. In a materialistic world, this means a response from someone whom you can see and touch.

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Science does not have all the answers to life's problems. Even if Science were there to make life more comfortable, it does not guarantee man's happiness.

Explain then why the richest, most handsome, most powerful people still chose to kill themselves while the struggling single mother of 2 children still clings to dear life through faith and prayer in some god? And in spite of this, still has the guts to laugh and make happy her lot in life?
The mere idea that men are born not to be contented. There will always be something that they will be in pursuit. Whether be it financially or socially or spiritually. You can rightfully say that they will commit suicide if they have no longer any actual accomplishments to meet.

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That was the inevitable inertia when you're head of Civilization for a whole millenium. Could we blame the Church as a human organization for that?

Unless you have a personal hatred for the power and wealth of the Church, I can't do anything about that, but I shall see to it that this hatred must face the severest scrutinies of reason. 


The choice is yours, if you're really finding the truth wherever it may lead you, then you wont be afraid to find it in the Scriptures and the Church.

The church did give the greatest gifts it can give to man. Gifts of knowledge, morality and civilization. My hatred is towards the people within this organization that poisons the people with what their opinion, according to the scripture, should be the way of life. Binding people in scripture based rules without basic logical reason is my primary concern about the church. I am not discrediting the idea that God does not exist, its in the interpretation of God and when its mixed with worldly intent.
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Re: Is Science a Religion?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2009, 02:00:56 am »
Very good heated debate! Let me join!

I don't think that the historical timeline is the issue here. I mean, yeah, the Roman Catholic Church ignited the pursuit of Science all the way since the Middle Ages; She kept the most important philosophical and scientific writings in Her archives; and undeniably, Western civilization as a whole has its roots upon Christianity. So now the question is this: if Science started out as a Religion, is Science a Religion?

My answer would be "no", or if you want, "not anymore". Science clearly removed its affiliations with Religion since the Renaissance period. There is a clear distinction between the two:

Science - Physical
Religion - Metaphysical

For me, it is as simple as that.

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it's not science itself that solved human problems, for science does not have a mind of its own, science does not have a will of its own, it does not have a freedom of its own.

Humans UTILIZE Science to solve their problems. And by problems, I will clearly define it as physical problems. Sure, prosthetic legs may not be as "divine" or "sacred" as God-given human legs, but I don't think prayer can make you walk without legs.

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The people who solved the problems of humanity, or discovered scientific breakthroughs were themselves Roman Catholics, priests, monks and lay persons. The Augustinian Gregor Mendel, the Father of Genetics, Marie Curie, Louis Pasteur, Alexander Flemming, Nicolaus Copernicus, even Rene Descartes was a very, very devout Catholic. Those who are living right now, we could add Fr Michel Heller (a Polish mathematician-priest), Fr. John Polkinghorne (Anglican quantum physicist priest), Father Jose Funes (Chief astronomer at the Vatican Observatory) So as you can see, the Catholic Church has a vast array of intellectual workers at her service, and these people do not and cannot manipulate scientific truths, since science is an exact intellectual endeavour.

Yes, they are members of the Church, and it is probably the very thought of God that drove them in their intellectual endeavor. But why are you attributing their works to Religion? Clearly, Science rightfully takes the credit for their scientific achievements, regardless of their religious affinity.

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I can fairly say that if the Roman Catholic Church should be categorized as a corporate entity, then it engages itself in the business of hope. There are more than 1 billion Roman Catholics in the world - how many of them might I ask, have the time, intellectual capability or money in order to study to and think out lofty theological concepts just so they could say "I know there's a God" ? Can the ordinary street sweeper do that? Can the farmer do that? Can the sampaguita vendor in front of Quiapo Minor Basilica think out Metaphysics and Ontology? Obviously the answer would be no, but then, what keeps them going? Isn't it that it is the child-like, innocent and even obscurant faith of these little people that enables them to face another harsh reality of a new day? Ofcourse, the Holy Mother Church, who through her Priests, Missionaries, Nuns and other concerned people that these people are receiving the help they need. They might not get a monthly welfare, but through the work of these holy men and women, more and more people are given hope and strength to endure the present world that's absued and exploited by the godless. The church gives out money to the poor, the church teaches the ignorant, the church heals the sick who cannot pay. I am proud to say I belong to such a Church - The Holy Roman Catholic Church.
I wish there was an international atheist organization as big as the Roman Catholic Church, one with a strong scientific inclination, one with a morality system of their own. And then we will see if God really is necessary to engage in the "business of hope".

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Mockery, derision, folly, skepticism, even downright hatred. God is in a test-tube, God is in a cage and there we can do whatever we want from Him because he does not want to show his awesome power to a panoply of seemingly all-knowing Scientists and intellectuals.

Why not? If He can burst the bubbles of Scientists at will, why is He hesitant?

Quote
When push comes to shove, the greatest lie Science can tell humanity is "I can do it".

So whenever the Church tells that lie to humans, it becomes legitimate?


Quote
If I may add, it is even a Catholic belief that "grace builds upon nature". This principle was expounded by Saint Thomas Aquinas.

In a nutshell, this principle says that God does not act magically, rather, he acts through and with people, events and the material world. And so it is obviously wrong to think prayer will wipe out all one's problems.

"Acting through and with people" still sounds magical to me.

Quote
faithful prayer can do nothing if it is not coupled by works, deeds, actions.

Why pray when actions alone produce similar results?

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Science does not have all the answers to life's problems. Even if Science were there to make life more comfortable, it does not guarantee man's happiness.

Well in the first place, Science never aimed for human happiness. I don't think Science can even define what happiness is. Your statement is tantamount to saying "Religion does not have all the answers to life's problems. Even if Religion were there to make life happier, it does not guarantee man's comfort."

Personally, I bear no grudge against the Church, but I believe that She is the very avatar of indoctrination. For an organization who adheres to Reason (as you claim), most of Her people sure seem to be mindless conformists. I mean, I can't even say "I don't believe in God" without having an ear-splitting gasp as a rebuttal.

Veritas Lux Mea

 

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